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Call for ideas: Defending your towns

We are well aware that in current state of the game defense of your country is quite troublesome when you are offline because you have multiple towns that you need to defend, but attacker attacks only 1 town with all his army. You will need to defend with your whole army, but how can you guess which town will be attacked? When you are online, you can move troops from other towns when you see incoming attack, but what can you do when you are offline? Splitting army into parts and put parts in different towns is not an option because army parts alone can be defeated quite easily - divide and conquer. This situation forces people who are being attacked to be online whole day and night. Sure, there is a truce items that grant you temporary invulnerability, but what if you can't afford it or if you don't want to show your weakness, you just want to fight, but without requirement of being online 24/7?

Now as there are active wars happening in the game right now the issue is as imporant as ever, so:


"We need an ability which allow players to defend with their whole army when they are offline"


Now this got me thinking how can we do that. My first idea was to allow some option of armies auto-move into other town when that town is about to be attacked. We could have added ability to set filters which troops are movable and which are not and so on. This would have allowed you to leave your town and make sure that when enemy attacks, your troops will group as a whole to fight together. However when we discussed this with the team we figured out that this won't help, because attacker can easily fool this system. Attacker could send a small squad earlier attacking one town, to trigger defense movement and then a bit later the full army to another town which will be defenseless. Sure we could add some checks which will measure the size of incoming troops to send only part of defense, but this system would eventually be to complicated and obscure, hard to understand for players and still with loopholes because players will find a way to outsmart such a defense AI.

We came to the conclusion we need something simplier and reliable and we came with the concept of Catacombs. What is catacomb? Basically it is the Shelter but the other way around. You load troops into catacombs and when there is the attack happens at any of your towns that have catacombs, all troops from other towns loaded into catacombs will instantly be teleported into battle. This will allow you to split your army into parts, load it into catacombs in each town which in turn will allow the army to fight as a whole when enemy attacks any of your towns. You still need to unpgrade wall and towers in each town because you don't know which town will be attacked as well as you will have to upgrade catacombs building to fit more troops in there.

At first you might think that with this concept you MUST keep all your troops in them at all times, but we can make some limitations which will add the drawbacks to make them so desirable at all times. For example:

  • Catacombs function only agast other player attacks, units there don't fight against monsters.
  • Loading and unloading times very long so you can't put troops in and out fast.
  • Catacombs cannot teleport more troops that target town food income can support (food income cannot become negative value).
  • They cannot teleport into town not connected by domain (I know this is not very important at current state of the game, but later in Medieval Age when you will be able to capture towns of other players and settle towns over the sea this will be significant).
  • Ships and Planes cannot be loaded for obvious reasons.

All those limitations will make the Catacombs useful only when you go away from the game for a long time (i.e. go to sleep or to work) - you load all your spare troops into catacombs and move away. Later you extract them and play (attack others or play quests/fight monsters, etc.)

Being said that it is time to ask for feedback, criticism and counter-ideas. Perhaps there are some moments which we missed which will make this thing to be not as good as expected? Maybe you see some flaws? Or perhaps you have something better that you want to propose which solves the problem above quoted in bold? Speak up! This issue is a priority one and we are going to solve it in alpha 4 launch at most one way or another so here is your chance to influence final decision.

Edited by berserker 6 years ago.

6 years ago

I think everybody appreciate your efforts but the fact is, like about upgrading buildings during night/at work, this game favorises unhealthy behaviours, that is, waking up from time to time to upgrade something or playing from time to time at work, carefully checking that your boss isn't looking. Your idea here can't be as good as being playing, one can't dispell battlecry, someone always here wouldn't have to spend resources/time to upgrade catacombs etc.

Your idea is to make things better than nothing, still very very far from equal to someone always here. Another bad behaviour is simply 2 people playing on the same account so when one is sleeping the other one plays, many ways of doing that are undetectable. Another thing is the fact that most people playing are from europe and USA, so with your system it's less a problem but still: americans have the advantage of being able to attack an european who is sleeping, who will in turn be able to attack back when the other one is sleeping, but being weaken by being attacked first.

6 years ago

Sure, the game is addicting which makes to enter it very often, but this thread is about different. This message of this thread is: "you HAVE TO be online 24/7 in order to defend effectively" and this is what we are trying to fix. This issue is larger than the rest, although I agree, there is room to work in this direction for other issues.

6 years ago

When i suggested to make rally town point for army units you said its a bad idea because people need to login to manage their kingdom themselves, the same answer applies on your own idea. 

In every games the ones playing and putting more effort than casual player will obviously have the advantage, you already made communality for casual players, don't push it too far else you can just give up on the war aspect. 

6 years ago

The rally point is completely different thing. Rally point does not solve any serious issue, it only makes it a bit more convenient which is not critical. The issue here is not about being more active. Being more active than others will give you enough advantages anyway.  The issue here is about forcing to be active 24/7 which is not a sane requirement for 99% of players.

The inability to defend while you are away is not only about Communality players. In fact Communality players are more prepared towards this because their army is 3x strong and they can split it without critical impact. It's the Leaderism players who are defenseless while they are offline. When I have played war actively as Leaderism in alpha 2, I have felt it on my own skin. Back in the days I have made a note about it being a serious issue, but now when finally there is a big war happening, this issue is relevant than ever, that's why I am bringing it up now.

The reason why you are opposing my suggestion is because you don't have a strong player like yourself fighting against you. If you had such players you would see it is quite tiresome to fight against adequate foe exactly because of this defense thing.

Edited by berserker 6 years ago.

6 years ago

The reason why people can't defend when they are offline is not in splitting troops to defend all. It is in basic food production. You simply can't put all your army in 1 town it will starve to death. 

The leaderisms i attacked never even tried to defend their towns while they were infact ONLINE. They prefered moving army out of town or were busy playing other heroes at that moment. How i know they were online? Because 10 minutes after my attack there were new troops in the ruined town. The inability to defend comes from splitting focus from playing 1 kingdom to several. If i know that it is only 5 minutes through the territory to reach the town and i know that people have 10 alt towns they are busy with them hell yea ill take my chances. Needless to say i was facing "ally" that are all next to each other and they all could have came to 1 town to defend it if they really wanted or payed attention.

So for the catacomb part. I don't really see it as a nessessety same as the auto timer for multiple players to attack. This is a game with very little random effect already. If you make things automated even if it comes from good  intentions it leads to person not even needing to login to do anything.

Anyhow, since you will proceed with catacombs in any case you should to make a limit on it. And a serious one. The option i would suggest is to have hero automatically go defend the town that is under attack if you want.  Giving catacombs to an advanced communality is same as letting them be in peace from now on. You will have to bring a zerg to do anything to them while they can just continue being selfish towards others just because they created 5 accounts in 1 continent at start. Im not talking about a sneak attack, that i would attack them only when they are offline. When you build a new town you have to take into consideration how you will defend it. If you just build on the border of the kingdom that is next to you just to get more cells you put your own town in danger and you have to live with it.

Edited by Arrivederci 6 years ago.

6 years ago

Defending new towns is a valid concern - it should be more complicated to defend new towns, but we can easily offset the catacombs advantage by making serious building requirements like residence level 10 in order to build catacombs. This will allow to build catacombs only in developed towns and not in a fresh new ones.

6 years ago

Im not talking about town you just built. Im saying that when you pick to build a town on a border you have to know that it will be most likely a priority to get attacked. And if it takes 20 minutes to move troops from 1 of your town to another it needs to be taken into consideration, you can't just instantly teleport them. Also, what are you going to do if there will be 3 attackers at the same time that will arrive at same time in 3 different towns, how will the system react to that?

6 years ago

Reply to berserker :


"This issue is larger than the rest"(yeah, "quoting" this way because your forum is just awful and breaks everything, it even just took 50% of my cpu by bugging when showing me once again for no reason "

Must be between 8 and 10000 characters long"

)

This is wrong. Same could be said about the "tech queuing" which you rejected, ok it doesn't matter much that one tech finish just 1 hour after you go to sleep and like 7 hours are wasted, now, the same for buildings, twice for someone with a job, everyday, allow some people starting the same day as other to be more than twice more powerful anyway, it's a way, way, way bigger issue and is way easier to fix too. Heleja became mad most likely mainly because of that."If you make things automated even if it comes from good  intentions it leads to person not even needing to login to do anything."I highly disagree, simply because it's wrong, and I don't even need to arg since I did already with the example of battlecry dispelling.

6 years ago

The residence lvl 10 requirement is nothing, catacombs are defence mechanism so if you really want to defend something you need to put ammount of upgraded towers and lvl of walls as a requirement. So at least you work for it intentionaly and not just build up towns as quickly as possible and be afk for the rest of the game.

As for battlecry, it isn't what makes you win or lose the fights. Extra damage helps obviously but you don't go to attack praying "please, don't let it be cleansed".

6 years ago

If we will not make it instant, if will be the same as my initial idea and will be easily tricked by other players by sending fake attacks like I have described. The walls and towers are not a requirement for catacombs, they have to be built anyway if you want to increase your chances in each town.

There are other means to reduce the power of it though, like limiting range of the catacombs, like you cant supply if the town is say 10 cells away so it will be harder to auto-defend a really large country. However I an still not sure how significant it will be in reality.

6 years ago

Reply to goznij :

This is wrong. Same could be said about the "tech queuing" which you rejected, ok it doesn't matter much that one tech finish just 1 hour after you go to sleep and like 7 hours are wasted, now, the same for buildings, twice for someone with a job, everyday, allow some people starting the same day as other to be more than twice more powerful anyway, it's a way, way, way bigger issue and is way easier to fix too.

This is a thread about defense, please do not derail it.

6 years ago

I will repeate my question, what will happen if 3 different towns will get attacked by 3 different kingdoms at the same time? All of those towns are connected by catacombs. Where will the troops end up?

6 years ago

The troops will end up in the first attacked town and then if they end their fighting and there are still fights going on in other towns they will teleport back to other town to help fighting there and so on.

6 years ago

Reply to berserker :

This is wrong. Same could be said about the "tech queuing" which you rejected, ok it doesn't matter much that one tech finish just 1 hour after you go to sleep and like 7 hours are wasted, now, the same for buildings, twice for someone with a job, everyday, allow some people starting the same day as other to be more than twice more powerful anyway, it's a way, way, way bigger issue and is way easier to fix too.

This is a thread about defense, please do not derail it.

I didn't, please make efforts to understand: someone with twice less army/towers etc, is, less defensive, more than everything you wrote.

6 years ago

What about putting some "bounty" names of attackers instead of making server crash by making it chose where and which troops should be teleported where. If a town is getting attacked by Arrivederci rally the troops! If by some random wannabes let the towers kill them off

In any case, it is all about the food income. All the defence stops there.

Edited by Arrivederci 6 years ago.

6 years ago

It will be too complicated and in case there are massive attacks going on all towns the catacombs won't save you anyway. They are designed to be a goalkeeper when you are away. Like you have 5 holes (towns) and only 1 plug (your army). You have to put the plug where water comes (attacker attacks one of your towns). If the water comes through all holes it doesn't really matter where you put your plug.

6 years ago

Defending against 1 guy isnt a problem whoever say otherwise is just a person that doesnt want to prepare to defend, Problem comes when you have to defend against multiple players or their alts. which will attack different towns when you are offline at the same second and your catacomb system will crash because fights last longer than 1 second.

And for the note before implementing catacombs you should implement the rule about not being able to attack same kingdom from your alt heroes at least.

I understand the attackers are the agressors and everyone hate them but there are a lot of holes in the attack system aswell. For example, reinforcing someone when your own kingdom is in peace. It is rediculess, you put up peace so whole kingdom is safe and on top of it you will go defend your friend multiplying the force the attacker has to overcome by 2.

6 years ago

I agree one problem is food. If I want to have army in my town and I have a bunch of towers that is less army I can have because the ten people supporting that level five archery tower are eating a lot of food. I think those ten people should be able to come out of tower and fight in defense. I don't expect them to be an active part of army but just an active part of defense. That at least would help me want to build more towers because as it is now I choose army over tower due to food supply. Maybe I woul be able to train defensive units in the tower instead of them holding ten people who just eat

Edited by Tuey 6 years ago. Reason: Added content

6 years ago

People coming out of tower is basically the same as making towers stronger. Are you saying towers are not strong enough?

6 years ago