Early Age Aerial Defence

The purpose of this proposal is to address a defensive gap that lower age (up to lower REN) players face, against higher age attackers using aerial bombardments to completely destroy fully upgraded towers and walls, before sending in a ground attack after the defending player has lost all defensive advantages offered by towers and walls, with hardly any risk of loosing their bombers, while still allowing aerial attacks to be devastating and highly effective for the attacking player.

This may help insure that high level towers and walls can’t be destroyed with aerial attacks so easily, allowing a defending player to actually benefit from upgrading and increasing the amount of buildings against ground and siege attacks, while still considering the attacking player, we would just like to try and balance out the playing field that will still be enjoyable and beneficial to all.

We propose that one or more of the following be considered:

1. SMOKESCREEN [Proposed New Building]

2. CATAPULT [Existing Unit]

3. BALLISTA [Existing Unit]

4. TREBUCHET [Existing Unit]

5. DRAGON HARPOON GUN [Proposed New Building]

6. CHOICE BETWEEN OIL AND BALLISTA TOWERS [Proposed New Building]

1. SMOKESCREEN – Stone Age Proposed New Building

Stone Age Defensive Building to reduce the effectiveness of early age aerial attacks.

• DAMAGE / EFFECTS:

  • Reduce accuracy of aerial attacks of early age aircraft by 5% or up to 30% depending on level of Smokescreen Building

  • Do not cause actual damage to aircraft

  • Smokescreen Building grants no advantages against ground troops or siege units

• COST / UPGRADING:

  • Requires Lumber to charge any time before an attack and then needs to be recharged after each aerial attack

  • Recharging time should not be too long as one needs to be able to recharge before next attack

  • Amount of Lumber needed for recharge needs to be quite high and will need to be recharged after each aerial attack

  • Smokescreen Building can be upgraded to increase effectiveness, decrease reloading time and cost

  • Final upgrade to Smokescreen Building adds an extra smokescreen load to ward off another aerial attack after first load has been used

  • Upgrading the Smokescreen Building will take large amounts of Lumber, especially the final upgrade which in addition should perhaps also require a Blueprint

2. CATAPULT – Classical Age Existing Unit

Classical Age Offensive Siege Unit that has a small chance to instantly destroy early age aerial units.

• DAMAGE / EFFECTS:

  • Catapults have a very low chance of dealing an instant kill to early age aircraft

• ACCURACY / RELOAD TIME:

  • Up to a 2% chance for a Catapult to deal an instant kill to an aircraft

  • If the probability of a hit is too large due to higher numbers of Catapults used by Despot players, the probability of an instant kill can be decreased to 1%

  • Catapults may have a slow reload time

• ADVANTAGES FOR EARLY AGE PLAYERS:

  • This will allow Collect players to make use of early age siege weaponry even though they can’t use them effectively in an offensive capacity

  • This will also allow Despot players who have no defensive bonuses to have a slightly higher defensive capability against aerial attacks due to a larger number of Catapults

3. BALLISTA – Classical Age Existing Unit

Classical Age Offensive Unit that has a moderate chance to damage early age aerial units.

• DAMAGE / EFFECTS:

  • Ballistae have a chance of dealing moderate damage to early age aircraft

  • Perhaps 10% - 20% damage per hit which will mean that it will take a minimum of 5 hits for a kill

  • Chance for a One-Hit-Kill still possible, but we suggest a very low chance between 0.5% - 1%

• ACCURACY / RELOAD TIME:

  • We suggest 5% - 10% chance for a Ballista to land a hit on an aircraft

  • Faster reload time than Catapults & Trebuchets

• ADVANTAGES FOR EARLY AGE PLAYERS:

  • Damage and accuracy percentages are the same for Despot and Collect players

4. TREBUCHET – Medieval Age Existing Unit

Medieval Age Offensive Siege Unit that has a slightly increased chance to instantly destroy early age aerial units.

• DAMAGE / EFFECTS:

  • Trebuchets have a slightly increased chance of dealing an instant kill to early age aircraft

• ACCURACY / RELOAD TIME:

  • Up to a 4% chance for a Trebuchets to deal an instant kill to an aircraft

  • If the probability of a hit is too large due to higher numbers of Trebuchets used by Despot players, the probability of an instant kill can be decreased to 2%

  • Trebuchets may have a slow reload time

• ADVANTAGES FOR EARLY AGE PLAYERS:

  • This will allow Collect players to make use of early age siege weaponry even though they can’t use them effectively in an offensive capacity

  • This will also allow Despot players who have no defensive bonuses to have a slightly higher defensive capability due to a larger number of Trebuchets

5. DRAGON HARPOON GUN – Medieval Age Proposed New Building

Medieval Age Defensive Building that does considerable damage to early age aerial units.

• DAMAGE / EFFECTS:

  • The Dragon Harpoon Gun is the first “proper” anti-aircraft gun building (we think it would be better if it’s not a tower, but a building to limit the amount that a player can build per city)

  • Damage percentage range from 20% - 35% per hit which leads to a minimum of 3 hits for a kill

  • Chance of a One-Hit-Kill also increased - up to 5%

  • Building only effective against aerial units and completely vulnerable against ground & siege units

• ACCURACY / RELOAD TIME:

  • Increased accuracy between 15% - 30%

  • Reload time more or less the same as Ballista

• COST / UPGRADING / RESEARCH:

  • Reload time along with accuracy and damage can be scaled up according to level of building

  • Final level of building, perhaps allow for “dual shot” which will double chances on all of the above stats

  • We suggest that up to two Dragon Harpoon Gun buildings can be built per city, but the initial cost should be rather high with the final upgrade (allowing for “dual shot”) to require a Blueprint and be extremely costly for a Medieval age building

  • Dragon Harpoon Gun building available in split research tab on the Research Tree with the other choice being something very effective against ground and/or siege units so the player would have to prioritize his defenses

  • Building can possibly be promoted to a more advanced AA gun in higher ages that can work in conjunction with a radar system for added effectiveness (this will warrant the high initial costs of the building and the use of a Blueprint in the first place)

• ADVANTAGES FOR EARLY AGE PLAYERS:

  • A highly effective but costly building for early ages against a more advanced players’ increasingly frequent, highly damaging aerial attacks

6. CHOICE BETWEEN OIL & BALLISTA TOWER – Medieval Age Proposed NewBuilding

Medieval Age Defensive Tower that does moderate damage to early age aerial units.

• DAMAGE / EFFECTS:

  • Another possible solution for early age AA defense would be to have a choice between two tower upgrades

  • The first being the oil tower which is highly damaging against ground and siege units while having no damage effect on aerial units

  • The second being a Ballista Tower which is moderately damaging against ground units, but only slightly damaging against siege units

  • However, the Ballista Tower will be able to damage aerial units to the same extent as we propose the normal Ballista unit will be able to do or perhaps slightly more due to it being more sturdy (fixed unit), but not a lot stronger due to the large number of towers that can be built

• ADVANTAGES FOR EARLY AGE PLAYERS:

  • This will allow a player to customize / prioritize his/her defenses according to the attacker’s strategy while still giving the defender a moderate but tangible defense against an aerial attack, bridging the gap that early age players face against later age players’ aerial attacks

Sorry about how the posts came out. I copied them from word and looked good on the pre-post screen... Everything is still quite readable although it requires a whole lot more scrolling.. :)

Looking forward to any feedback from players and devs be it good or bad.

Cool Runnings - Baz.

Hey Bers,

Well I can only speak for myself and for the few others I know have had this problem but I play every single day at least 2 hours a day and most days around 5 hours, when I have the time, more. I'm now in early Ren with my first hero and have a great alliance as support and experienced friends for advice. I do believe I'm doing quite okay for someone new to the game but to dedicate so much time to a game and enjoying it so much I just feel that it would go a long way to have some decent AA def for these ages pre-industrial as it seems to happen quite often that people who are playing frequently but do have other responsibilities get creamed by industrial age weaponry as there is a lack of proper AA def up until industrial age to my knowledge (like I said, I am new to this). To be advised to build towers and walls to stand up to large attacks and then have those towers and walls be completely ineffective against air raids with no tech/ buildings or units available to deter such an strategy is quite frustrating to say the least. I'm not asking (and I'm sure others would feel exactly the same) for some building or unit to make me invincible and logically a stronger higher age army should have advantages in battle. I'm only asking for a effective chance of deterring such attacks. Being at Ren in just over 70 days isn't what I would call a player who is unmotivated or unskilled even if he has been playing for years, let alone only just starting.. 

I'm really don't want to bash heads with anyone regarding this topic, especially you as I really have a lot of respect for you in creating such an awesome game. As I mentioned before in another thread, I've been playing MMO's for a long time and really think that this is one of the best, if not the best in it's genre that I have ever played.

But I do see a gap that needs to be plugged and to my understanding you encourage us to point said gaps out to you or one of the other devs. I am a dedicated and motivated player and know many others that are as well but I've seen quite a few players being taken down and loosing interest due to such a small thing. I'm hoping you would come to see that I'm only trying to assist you all in making it even better and that you, as everyone I've asked regarding this topic (players that range from newbies Collects to veteran Despots) would start to get excited and inspired by the possibilities of introducing a logical, unbiased edition to all the great units and buildings that would just give us a chance of defending our towns and keep on enjoying this awesome game.

I don't care if you don't use any of these ideas but just a little something would really go a long way for all us mere mortals who want to be a part of this game and community.

Thanks once again for all the hard work and man, what an awesome game! Respect!

Cool Runnings - Baz.

Sure thing. In short it is quite realistic with the 30 day rule for a player to be in Med or Ren while a player with more time and experience can be in Ind already. And while players in Ind have aerial bombers at their disposal that negates any advantages offered by towers & walls and almost all units, up to late Ren,  they can eliminate any defensive advantage those players work hard to have and which is the only thing making a Ind Despot think twice about attacking a lower age player. Did not know Ballista is effective against aerial units, looking forward to trying that one out. :)

I can completely understand that if a player were still to be in the Stone or Classical age that their shouldn't be any complaints hence only adding a Smokescreen for those early ages, as I thought it was just plain cool and since it doesn't damage aerial units but only reduce their effectiveness. :) But to be only one age behind another player does not even mean you are less dedicated. For instance, I'm 70 days in and at early Ren, being attacked by a Ind player who is just under a 100 days into the game using aerial bombers to destroy any defenses I have. I have absolutely no doubt that in 30 days I would also be in Ind and that's with my first hero. And once in Ind I would also use bombers to destroy any defenses before using ground forces to finish the job. I don't blame anyone for using such a tactic as it's logical and effective. At the very least shouldn't there perhaps be some type of aerial defense weapon for late Med or if not at least early Ren? Honestly I would try to incorporate a AA def as early as early Med, as it really isn't that far fetched for a player with a limited amount of time to still be in Med while a highly motivated player can be in Ind, and I don't think that the Med player should be penalized for only being able to dedicate a certain amount of time to the game.. I do think that the more dedicated player still deserve to get rewards for his time and money spent but like I mentioned earlier. We are really not asking for some super defense weapon that completely wipes out any aerial attack. I'm in nature a bit more aggressive player and looking forward to playing as a Despot when I restart so I am honestly thinking of both sides but I do believe that the huge number of players that only have so much time to play deserve consideration in this matter.

One of the things that captured me the most from the start in TTJ was the fairness and balance achieved, and one can definitely notice the amount of time and work put into this game. It's the fairness that made me want to play it more as, just like the puzzles, it's not made to be easy. That's why I'm sure when I play as a Despot it would leave a certain sour taste in my mouth to be able to walk over an only slightly less advanced and dedicated player with such ease.. It won't be like a cheat but it would be something similar I imagine to discovering a secret formula for making money - Great at first and then after some time just too easy and monotonous.. I love the fact that attacking players requires skill and timing instead of just more advanced brute force attacks which the game achieves, in all aspects that I have observed so far except for this one small thing I believe.

The gap in technological advancements between Ren or worse still, Med and Ind in history where so huge that realistically it would be very difficult to imagine a Med weapon being effective against Ind aerial units but no two countries ever did engage in such a level of combat. I would hope, and is fairly sure that should it have happened the people of a Med age civilization would have thought up ways and means to defend at least to some extent against aerial attacks and for the sake of engaging and balanced game play perhaps such a means should be introduced for players in those ages, hence the dragon harpoon gun I proposed, we already have dragons in the game and such a weapon would be relatively effective against low altitude aerial units that for me it would make sense that should the need have arisen for a Med age civilization that they would think up something along that line of defensive weapons to help defend their towns.

I do hope this clearly answers your question as I'm quite new to giving my opinion and not a Dev even though I wish I was (kickass job). Really glad you took an interest in my post and hoping it can help. Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Cool Runnings - Baz.

I just want to mention one more thing. There are players who reach Ind in 60 days or less! Now I know a few great players but Ind in 60 days.. No matter how dedicated I am, I don't see myself being able to do that without years of practice, if at all.. Once again I absolutely don't hold it against that player for doing so well and being so dedicated, and obviously don't think that such a player should be penalized in any way, but it just strengthens my point.

Being Ind in 60 days or less gives that player access to attacking any age players. What about newbies still trying to get their head around the game who are still in the Classical age for instance or for that matter, almost any player, newbie or veteran that's anywhere from Stone to Ren. I really think (and I'm not alone in this matter), that earlier ages needs some type of effective aerial defense just to give us a chance.

The Ind player still has advanced weaponry and there aerial attacks will still do serious damage while all other advantages that a Ind player have over lower level players are still all in place such as increased res prod, tech, units etc. All odds are still heavily tilted to the side of the Ind player. All we're talking about is giving us effective weapons and buildings that would make such a player think twice about sending aerial raids and rather opt to use a large scale ground invasion which in turn would allow the lower age players to make use of the defensive bonuses that towers and walls are meant to give them in the first place.

I think the bombs are literally overkill in this game and I am a despot/attacker. The bombs throw a huge imbalance into the game because there’s literally no defense to them. 

For example, if I only have the normal bombers and I know you have many aerial attacking units that will destroy my bombs, I will just load 1 bomb per plane. This will allow all of my bombs to drop in first round dealing max damage possible. Then just retrain and repeat.

Abombs you can only load 1 per plane anyways, same concept. 

The only defense you have is to just shoot the planes out of the sky, but, bombs already dropped and nothing you can do to defend from the blast of the bombs.

And this will just become a more and more frequent thing once players realize this.

My suggestion would be to limit how many bombs are able to drop per round. Giving at least some chance to defend the blast damage to defenses.

Maybe industrial age, could have some of the things available in the 2nd World War, like Ack Ack guns, Radar, dummy targets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz#British_counter_measures and these things.

Aerostats engage in the fight on the defense side believe it or not.  I know.  I was as surprised as anyone! :-D  But, once a bomb is dropped, as in real life, there is no way around the damage.  You have to get the planes before they unload as Barns said and nothing does that right now.

Thanksl for your input guys and girls. Really appreciate the feedback regarding this topic as I do think it's something that is needed to be looked into and discussed in detail.

I was especially surprised by River's comment about Aerostats contributing in AA def! That's awesome news but had no idea as it doesn't mention anything in the stats window or research tree.. Can you perhaps let us know just how effective they are?

Dbarns also makes a great point regarding the bombs dropped.. Like I mentioned I am still very new to this game and have only made it as far as mid Ren so far, so I can't really talk with you guys regarding this matter but I hear completely what he is saying.

Stitch, I think the barrage balloons could be a great edition and would help out a lot for early age Ind defense.

Although all these points are very valid and appropriate I think we are drifting away from the original purpose of this thread and that is to address the lack of early age AA def. As I said, the barrage balloons would be a great edition and learning about bomb mechanics and another purpose of Aerostat balloons is awesome and addresses the problem as well as Aerostats are mid Ren and would already help if they are effective, but it still doesn't help address the problem that players from Classical to early Ren face when being confronted with Ind age aerial bombers. Something that is not that far fetched or unheard of anymore since more and more players are reaching Ind in 70 - 80 days and some in as short a time as 50 - 60 days!

The argument of saying that this could only happen to players who are totally unskilled or undedicated isn't valid anymore in my humble opinion. It isn't just a possibility for those type of battles to happen anymore, it is happening every single day in the game and people are being completely slaughtered without any hope of putting up a defense that could withstand AA attacks, and those are players that are active every single day without fail, spending at least a couple of hours online each day.

I just want to mention once again that the only reason I keep on pounding on this issue is because I believe in this game and want to see it succeed. I know, very cheesy but also very true.

Cool Runnings and happy hunting - Baz.

Just as a footnote: Should you honor me my adding the dragon harpoon gun to the arsenal of buildings at our disposal I was thinking it definitely needs a better more bad-ass name. I was thinking what about calling it a Wind Lance/ Windlance or Wind Lance Harpoon as it's namesake from The Hobbit. If it could take down Smaug it should be adequate for taking down some low altitude straight flying bombers, do some serious damage or at the very least make them think twice.. :)